Monday, 17 September 2012

A lesson in how not to argue your case.

The following is a transcript of a conversation between myself and the admin of the facebook campaign page, Unted Kingdom Forever, as well as a couple of it's visitors.
The early comments seemed (to me) to be a little controversial, so I decided to join in the argument and see where it led.

What ensued became, I believe, a salutary lesson in how not to put forward an argument in support of a political position.
Naturally, not all British Nationalists are as ill-informed and poorly equipped as those below, but many on social media sites at least give the impression of being no more able than these examples.

United Kingdom Forever

The latest delusional post from a cybernatz on Mackies page...​pages/Mackies-Ice-Cream/​100224090023122

Nationalists want to silence businesses and personalities by a campaign of fear and intimidation. Remind us of a previous time in history?

Hector Lopez Arestegui bigotry is not politics, it's stupidity...nationalist stupidity from Mr.Salmond's people

Michael Holmes Autumn/Winter probably has more to do with the sales dropping than a nationalist boycott!

Bob Duncan Britain is not - and has never been - a nation. It is simply a geographical area. The United Kingdom is a unitary state formed by treaty (not a nation either). Scotland and England are nations, Wales is a principality and NI is a province.

You should at least attempt to get your facts straight if you are going to make this type of argument.

Matthew Doel Bob, get a life. I'm British and proud to be. I'm also proud to be European, and I'm really damn proud I'm not a bloody smart arse like yourself. I obviously have something you don't which is a sense of British nationality and your basic understanding of geography and history does not change that.

Bob Duncan And you will have a perfect right to feel that way once we are independent. But, how is that an argument for letting others make most of our important decisions for us?

United Kingdom Forever Bob Duncan is a MORON! In the world cybernatzi's blood mythology reigns supreme, to the average cybernatzi troll the English are "Saxon" and the Scots are "Celtic". Doesn't matter Scotland was settled by Angles, Saxons, Vikins, Normans, Jutes and Danes as well as Celts (not to mention all the other people who arrived after them!!!) none of these groups camped in one place, they didn't live on a apatite island where different ethnicities have been isolated from one another for the past 1,600 years, we’ve been mixing since the year zero. The borders of the various Kingdoms, dukedoms, fiefdoms have changed over time. Scotland and England can trace their origins to the middle ages and they have both ALWAYS consisted of people who were a mix of "Celt" and "Anglo-Saxon". To the cybernatzi trolls it doesn't matter the studies have concluded that people of English ancestry are as Celtic as the Scots, people of Scots origins are as Anglo-Saxon as the English. Nationalists need to believe they can trace their BLOOD to a distinct ethnic group and believe they are 100% Celtic or whatever. Oh and let’s forget about the millions of people who've migrated to these islands since the "Saxons" arrived, 1,600 years ago - THEY DIDN'T BRED - they're not part of us! I find myself staggered every day I log on to read dozens and dozens of trolls posting bigotry and hate steeped in the same belief the Nazi's had - BLOOD MYTHOLOGY. The Saxon's and the Celts merged into a multicultural mush a long time ago! Get over it! It's worth remembering the Nazi's, they were led by a part Jewish guy, with black hair and dark features who managed to convince the German people that blond haired, blue eyed Aryans were the master race! So we're not being oppressed by these Saxons who have re-emerged in recent years after they ceased to be a distinct ethnic group in Britain about 1,000 years or more ago! You will find the last three Prime Ministers of the UK have been Scots - Cameron, Brown, and Blair, and Scots made up the majority of Blair and Brown’s cabinets. There is no one in the UK (and probably no one in the world) who can claim to be 100% anything. People move around, time moves on, people mix! Maybe that will shatter a few illusions but it's a FACT!

Bob Duncan If I were a troll, I would be pretending to be a unionist - clearly I am not doing that.

If you are going to base arguments on terms like nation, state etc, you need to gain a basic understanding of what they mean and how they apply to the situation in the UK.

All this talk of ethnicity and cybernazis makes me think you have confused the SNP with the BNP. I know the initials are similar, but both are politically at opposite sides of the spectrum.

The SNP is fighting for self determination for those people who live in Scotland, it has nothing whatsoever to do with where they were born or came from.

Scottish nationalism is a civic nationalism, not an ethnic one. Until you grasp that, you will never understand what we are trying to achieve.

This is all about us being able to implement our own priorities by having all the political powers enjoyed by almost every other nation in the world.

United Kingdom Forever Britain is a nation and a country, the political union of 1707 MERGED the Kingdom of Scotland with the Kingdom of England to form the Kingdom of Great Britain. Britain is like most countries in the world - the United States, Canada, India, France, Italy, Belgium, Brazil, Argentina, Australia, the result of unions with other smaller nations to form one nation. Take India for example - a UNION, 1,680 languages are know to be spoken, there are a wide variety of ethnicities and religions but most Indians call themselves Indian because Unity makes sense, disunity makes no sense at all, especially when your living on a island where everyone has mixed and had family across all parts of the UK. It makes absolutely NO sense. But let me be clear Britain is a nation and a country. Nothing the cybernat trolls come out with about ethnicity and Britain doesn't exist, etc will change the facts that are written in black and white in the Act of Union, written in black and white on every official document, written in black and white on your passport and recognised by the international community and recorded in international conventions.

No amount of daft talk by cybernatz trolls changes that fact.

Bob Duncan It's only of historical interest, and hardly relevant today, but it was the Union of the crowns in 1603 which brought the 2 kingdoms together. It did not merge them, but the same individual (James VI) became king of both.

The 1707/8 acts of union formed a new state from the separate states of Scotland and England, but neither Scotland nor England relinquished their nationhood - in fact the acts of union are explicit in stating that they retained their individual nationhood.

When we become independent, we will become a nation state once more, but we never stopped being a nation.

Matthew Doel Well said, good admin.

This was the point at which I was banned from the page and each of my comments was removed, leaving a bizarre one-sided dialogue for future visitors to puzzle over.
Bob Duncan

Postscript: I have just been pointed to an article showing that Wales is accepted by the ICO as a country in its own right, rather than just a principality. Mind you, Luxemburg is only a Duchy, and they seem to do all right.


  1. Making the United Kingdom into the Untied Kingdoms shouldn't be that hard. It's just going back 305 years.

  2. I love how he is basically being the things he is accusing nationalists of. It baffles me how people that bat shit crazy exist.

  3. United Kingdom is not a nation its a union some folk just cant think or worse wont think.

  4. How come British Nationalists think that their jingoism, warmongering and Royalty worship is good yet peaceful, inclusive, civic Scottish Nationalism is Evil?

  5. I do not live in the UK, but I support Scottish Independence. This is partly because a lot of my family *does* live in Scotland, and it would make a difference in their lives, and partly because I believe that any nation should be able to determine its own issues. Indeed, the latter of these is simply an issue of human rights. I plan to move to Scotland when I finish my schooling, mostly to be closer to my relatives, but also because I see an independent Scotland as having an extremely bright future. Isn't foreign interest in a nation's independence good? This means that there will be a lot of people willing to invest and trade with an independent Scotland that would not be as interested in investing in a Tory run (and ruined) UK.

  6. Maybe wasn't a good idea for UK Forever to use India as his shining example of Union! Has he never heard of Kashmir, ethnic riots, religious intolerance (Gujarat massacres), etc, etc?

    I would have actually classed his comments as a tad.......right wing?

  7. Isn't it an offenbce to call someone a Nazi?

  8. I cannot even find "United Kingdom Forever" in order to denounce the 'Nazi' attack.


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